During a recent informal discussion with God’s Way Ltd members, volunteers and probation volunteers we spoke with a spirit, Gregor, about his progress in the spirit world. We had been discussing with the group how Compensation operates in the spirit world.

Jesus had explained that when we enter the spirit world a record of our lives is presented to us; literally played before our eyes. This record is displayed until the workings of the Law of Compensation are fulfilled or until the person engages the repentance process (via the Law of Repentance) with God.

Introduction

Mary channels Gregor, a fifth sphere spirit who describes his progress in the spirit world.

Gregor first describes his life on Earth, his location when he first arrived in the spirit world and his personal experience when God was not involved in his progress. He then goes on to describe what happened to enable God to assist with his progression and the differences that made.

Female Participant: Could you give some examples of say Nero progressing without God, and what the difference would have been had he involved God?

Mary: There were some spirits who came along and were talking about that, talking about how they had done it.

Jesus: Without God?

Mary: Without God and then …

Jesus: Would they like to answer the question?

(Mary tunes in)

Mary (Gregor): So, what would you like to know?

Jesus: Well, basically to explain to the group of people here, what it’s like to deal with a problem that you have faced as a part of your record of your life without God being involved, and then maybe compare that to something that you’ve dealt with, with God involved.

Mary: So maybe we’ll just have a spokesperson?

Jesus: Yes, that’s all good.

Mary (Gregor): So, on Earth I was a very intellectual man.

Jesus: What period of time did you live?

Mary (Gregor): The seventeen hundreds.

Jesus: Yes, no worries. What was your name by the way?

Mary (Gregor): Let’s say Greg for the sake of the translation.

Jesus: No worries. What country did you come from Gregor?

Mary (Gregor): Czechoslovakia, and so, yes, I was a very proud man on Earth, and I lived a selfish life.

Jesus: Perhaps you can help everyone understand what kind of life.

Mary (Gregor): Well, I was well to do.

Jesus: Yes, wealthy.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and I took what I wanted when I wanted it.

Jesus: Yes, without much consideration for anyone’s thoughts about it.

Mary (Gregor):  Yes, I didn’t care for the people in my care. I didn’t care for my family or my wife, or my employees, and I was often violent as well, in terms of …

Jesus:  … enforcing your will.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, on others, and I was quite cruel also. I could see the suffering in my employees and people in my charge, and I didn’t care for them. Some of their children died from hunger and some people died of exposure, and I didn’t care.

So, when I passed into the spirit world, I was an old man and I felt that I was quite proud of my life, and I was denying the hardness in my heart, and for some years, for some fifty years I stayed around my lands.

Jesus: Your estate on Earth

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and eventually I realised I needed to enter the spirit world and so I did that, and I found that very hard.

Jesus: Because of the realities of your circumstance?

Mary (Gregor): Yes. I found the environment was very cold and hard around me.

Jesus: So, it mirrored what you’d learnt to become.

Mary (Gregor):Yes, it mirrored my heart; I know now.

Jesus: And you didn’t see the record just yet?

Mary (Gregor): No. I felt confused, angry. I felt …

Jesus:  … like you didn’t deserve it.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, that there was an injustice, and I felt I should be able to bargain out of it.

Jesus: Wriggle yourself out of it.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, that I was smart, a clever man, I just needed to understand the system and I would get out.

Jesus: And then work the system after that.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and that there must be some way to get out of this. Little did I know the real way to get out of it.

(Jesus laughs)

Jesus: The simple way to get out of it.

Mary (Gregor): That quality actually became a good quality – eventually.

Jesus: Eventually, once you knew.

Mary (Gregor): But at that point I wasn’t soft to the possibilities of how to get out of it, and so I faced the … what I called the wrath then, the punishment.

Jesus: The Law’s punishment

Mary (Gregor): The punishment

Jesus: Yes, and what was that like?

Mary (Gregor): So, eventually I found my environment was cold, hard, and very restricted.

Jesus: Claustrophobic

Mary (Gregor):  Almost like I was in a small, cold, hard room and I didn’t see the record. I didn’t see the record for a long time and then … I don’t know what changed, I suppose it was time, and that I was always thinking there must be a way out of this. But it took me a long time to even consider … something … have an opening that maybe the way out of it was to face some problem in me.

Jesus: Yes.

Mary (Gregor): And as soon as I did that, then there was a chair and then I could sit, and then I was shown the record.

Jesus: So, there was a spirit who helped all of that, who gave you the chair and showed you the record, but you weren’t aware of them at this stage.

Mary (Gregor): I didn’t even know them or see them really.

Jesus: Yes, or even know they were there.

Mary (Gregor): That’s right.

Jesus: Just sort of magically appeared. (Jesus laughs)

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and I came to find the record was … it wasn’t like a written record as much as a …

Jesus:  … sensory one.

Mary (Gregor):  … an image record. Initially I didn’t have emotions about what I was seeing. I was just seeing … like what you would now say is a movie. I was seeing it again and not always in sequential order either.

Jesus: Just in terms of what came up at the time.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, there would just be different images. Sometimes it was, in the beginning, fleeting, and different things would be in my field of vision, if you like. Eventually I started to see things more, and see things more, and eventually more. It maybe took me eighty years to reach this point that I’m now talking about, maybe longer.

Jesus: So, this was a separate period? Fifty years and then eighty?

Mary (Gregor): Yes.

Jesus: So, fifty years to even just become …

Mary (Gregor):  … to start to see the record.

Jesus: To get to see the record and then eighty years where you’re seeing the record but not really feeling much about it at this stage.

Mary (Gregor): No feeling.

Jesus: So, how were you feeling even having the record in front of you in that period of time? Were you just sick of seeing it?

Mary (Gregor): Yes, initially I was impatient.

Jesus: Yes, what’s this all about?

Mary (Gregor): Yes. Why?

Jesus: Why am I seeing it?

Mary (Gregor): Yes, why am I seeing this? Also, some of the things I was seeing I was thinking …

Jesus:  … that’s not how it happened. (Laughter)

Mary (Gregor): That’s not how it happened, that’s not correct, and so I was impatient, impatient and not even angry. When I started to get angry …

Jesus:  … that was better. (Laughs)

Mary (Gregor): Yes, this is how hard my heart was.

Jesus: So, in that hard area, you were just sick of seeing it – dismissive of it.

Mary (Gregor): Impatient

Jesus: What’s it there for, but not really wanting to know what it’s there for, and then really just getting sick and tired of it being there and trying to ignore it?

Mary (Gregor): Yes.

Jesus: So, that was eighty years of that?

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and then I started to get angry. I started to get angry that I didn’t want to see these things and I started to see more things; I started to see a sequence in my life, to see it more continuously.

Jesus: So, the more you got angry the more you saw?

Mary (Gregor): Yes, or I can’t tell which came first. I suppose it probably was, but it seemed to work. Do you know what I mean?

Jesus: Yes, I do, I’ve seen it many times, but these people haven’t, so we’ve got to describe it well. 

Mary (Gregor): Well, the more angry I got, it seemed I saw more, and then that would make me more angry and then I would see more.

Jesus: That’s right.

Mary (Gregor): And then I would get more angry. So, I don’t really know what started it.

Jesus: Yes, exactly.

Mary (Gregor): Then after some time of that I began to feel pain – a lot of pain.

Jesus: Physical pain?

Mary (Gregor): Yes, physical …

Jesus: Sort of like torture.

Mary (Gregor):  … restricting pain, as if there was vice around me pain, and then I started to feel sorry for myself.

Jesus: Yes, and angry about that.

Mary (Gregor): Yes. (Laughter)

Jesus: As you do.

Mary (Gregor): Why would I have to suffer like this?

Jesus: Yes, what have I done so bad.

Mary (Gregor): How dare I suffer like this, and then eventually I came to understand I was feeling the suffering that I had inflicted on others.

Jesus: That’s right, and at this stage you hadn’t cried very much, just more screaming about how bad it is?

Mary (Gregor): It was like you said – like being tortured. Like I was physically surviving a lot of pain all of the time, and then when I realised that I was experiencing the pain commensurate to what I had caused others – it took me a long time to see that – but I remember realising that. And then there was some emotion. I wouldn’t call that remorse … yet, but do you know that feeling of recognition when you finally understand something? It’s sort of a relief.

Jesus: Yes, sort of like a lightbulb moment of regret type of thing.

Mary (Gregor): Yes.  I wouldn’t even say I regretted it.

Jesus: Not quite yet. 

Mary (Gregor): But it was a relief to understand why I was in so much pain, and I wasn’t yet feeling, and I stopped feeling angry, because I could see a cause and effect then, and that was good.

Jesus: So, you sort of now more felt like, oh, I did deserve it?

Mary (Gregor): Well, I still didn’t feel like I had, I felt like, oh, I understand.

Jesus: It felt more like a recognition of, you did do those things.

Mary (Gregor): Yes. I understand and I understand that I didn’t understand that I was hurting people so much, or that I didn’t care I suppose, but because it made sense, somehow that was better that it made sense, why it was happening.

Jesus: Yes, because it’s worse isn’t it, when something is happening to you, and you have no rhyme or reason for it happening.

Mary (Gregor): I really felt like some of the lads you’re talking to here today, I couldn’t see why … that I had done anything wrong.

Jesus: That’s right.

Mary (Gregor): So, this whole process then was helping me start to understand I had done something wrong. Then once I realised that, then another gradual process started to happen where I started to feel some level of sorrow.

Jesus: Yes.

Mary (Gregor): I could start to relate the pain I had been through to the pain that others had had to go through because of me, and then I started to feel some sorrow, some sadness, some regret about that.

Jesus: About causing them that kind of pain.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, because now I knew what that was like, because I had suffered it.

Jesus: For yourself, because you had suffered it.

Mary (Gregor): Yes. So, I was doing that then for a long time as well. This sort of sadness and I gave myself over to it more then.

Jesus: So, we’re in the mid eighteen hundreds now, aren’t we? In terms of time on Earth?

Mary (Gregor): Yes, I guess so. So, I gave myself to that then.

Jesus: So, you started grieving properly and feeling that you had done those things, and that it was bad that you had done them and that kind of thing.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and I probably did that for about fifty years, and I didn’t think much. Once I understood, because I was very logical – well I thought myself to be logical (Jesus chuckles) – I thought, well, this is what I have to do.

Jesus: Yes, it became quite clear to you that there was something involved with the law, pushing you in this direction.

Mary (Gregor): Once I understood that I had created that pain, it seemed like a kind of justice I suppose.

Jesus: Yes, an awareness of the justice.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, but I still feel my heart was not soft really. It was more a recognition of the scales of justice evening.

Jesus: Sort of like a reluctant recognition, and a reluctant emotional process now.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, I didn’t fight it anymore, but I didn’t feel soft in my heart. I didn’t feel what I would now call repentant for what I had done. There was just an acknowledgement, well, I need to go through this because I have done this.

Jesus: Because I deserve it.

Mary (Gregor): But there was no feeling of, I wish I could go back and undo it; I still didn’t really regret my life yet. I more or less just submitted to the process.

Jesus: Yes, you more regretted the situation you were in – more than regretted your life.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, I did initially. I was so angry about the process I was in, but then there came this strange switch where I just was like, ok, well this is what I am in, and I can’t change it; I gave up feeling I could change it and then I couldn’t really regret it either.

Jesus: Sort of like an acknowledgement, this is my reality now.

Mary (Gregor): Yes.

Jesus: For some reason did you still not understand the real reason why it was your reality, in the sense that, what was creating this reality?

Mary (Gregor): Well, my thought at that time was that I created it because of what I had created on Earth, so it was an evening of the scales.

Jesus: Got you, but you weren’t conscious of God’s Laws evening the scales.

Mary (Gregor): No. Just that I’m in a process that now makes sense.

Jesus: Has to be done.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and I can see … I didn’t think beyond that really. Just that, okay, this has got to happen.

Jesus: So, now we’re Earth time nineteen hundred – close to?

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and so around that time I began to … I suppose there’s the softening of my heart happening then, because I’m allowing the pain, I’m not fighting the pain, and I am feeling some sorrow for what people had gone through.

Jesus: So, your heart, your soul softening through that natural process.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and the more that I see the movie, the more that I see, more and more things.

Jesus: That are wrong in the movie.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, it’s becoming more refined, the things I see that went wrong in my life.

Jesus: Seeing more detail.

Mary (Gregor): And I understand now I was starting to see causes of why I had done wrong as well, but that happened very gradually over a period of time as I got more open or soft.

Then eventually there came a point, where I wished that I hadn’t done what I did for the sake of those people, not for my sake, but for their sake.

Jesus: Not for your sake.

Mary (Gregor): And that’s when everything changed.

Jesus: That’s when repentance begins.

Mary (Gregor): And that’s when I found people around me, people were there then.

Jesus: That cared about you.

Mary (Gregor):  Yes, and I could look away from the screen and speak with people, before then I couldn’t even look away, I was like in a brace, and then they could talk to me, and that’s when I started the process with God.

Jesus: Wonderful. And the process with God, how long did that take in comparison? (Laughter)

Mary (Gregor): Well, I’m still in a process with God.

Jesus: Of course, of course, but you’re well progressed now.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, the pain and suffering ended very quickly by comparison.

Jesus: Can you explain where you are now for the sake of our friends here?

Mary (Gregor): Yes, I am in the fourth to fifth sphere; at that progression point now. So, that happened very rapidly in comparison.

Jesus: In comparison with the rest.

Mary (Gregor): Yes

Jesus: Because you basically stayed in that hellish state for close to two hundred and fifty years, didn’t you?

Mary (Gregor): Yes

Jesus: Then the rest started happening

Mary (Gregor): And then within eight or ten years I was in the top of the first sphere.

Jesus: Yes, and without as much pain and so forth.

Mary (Gregor): And I have been good since then.

Jesus: Have you also found though that each sphere, it’s like you have to learn more than the average person does, to get to the next one? Is that how it is a bit?

Mary (Gregor): What do you mean?

Jesus: In the sense that usually when we’ve had a bad start on Earth, in terms of being selfishly motivated on Earth, even the transition between each sphere is slowed down a bit. Our ability to grow is slowed down, unless we are really embracing our relationship with God, and most people on Earth don’t realise that.

They sort of feel that once they make a start that they should go as fast through as anybody else would type of thing. They don’t realise the legacy, I suppose you could say, of the injuries.

Mary (Gregor): I suppose I am very conscious of the legacy; I feel that’s a part of the legacy; I never begrudge my slowness now.

Jesus: Yes, because it’s all about releasing that legacy.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and there was a lot of people that I wanted to …

Jesus: I’m not suggesting you’re slow compared to many.

Mary (Gregor): No, no I feel that …

Jesus: For many who are here, they would go, oh, it’s been a hundred years since then, and you’re now in the fifth sphere, why is that? Not understanding the legacy and how it impacts every part of your growth.

Mary (Gregor): Absolutely, there’s so many amends if I can call it that …

Jesus: Correct

Mary (Gregor):  … that I want to make at every point of this journey.

Jesus: Of course

Mary (Gregor): And each progression I make, makes me more sensitive and I want to do more; my focus is as much backwards as it is forwards, if that makes sense.

Jesus: Correcting the errors of the past

Mary (Gregor): There are so many things that I want to correct from the past, and to assist those that I have harmed as much as I can, and their descendants and my descendants.

Jesus: And that’s the difficulty, isn’t it? We often don’t realise the full effects of what we do in the moment we do them, but then later we see the full effects and we go, gee, there’s so much to help undo now. Also, there is a feeling in your heart you want to help them.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, it’s a joy for me now. There’s always sorrows that are there.

Jesus: Of course

Mary (Gregor): I feel so grateful to know God now and I feel … I’m not in the rush for heavenly things, in the sense that I know that when I make things right, I’ll be there, and that feels right to me; that feels just also. Do you know what I mean?

Jesus: Yes, I feel one thing that might help you a bit though is, I feel at the moment you are slowing your progress down because you feel … a still fairly strong judgement of yourself. So, there’s a resistance to receiving God’s Love because of that judgement of yourself.

Mary (Gregor): I feel I will receive God’s Love to that degree when I am worthy of it.

Jesus: Yes, and that’s where the error is. It’s like there’s still the feeling that you have to almost earn it because of the past.

Mary (Gregor): Well, repair what I have done, I suppose.

Jesus: Well, that’s true but my suggestion would be to let more of God’s Love flow into your soul, ask for more. At the moment I feel you’re managing how much flows, because of that feeling of guilt about what you’ve done still existing. Sort of managing how much flows into your heart, do you know what I mean?

Mary (Gregor): Thank you, friend. Thank you for that. {Emotional/teary tone}

Jesus: I know it’s a bit tricky because it’s like when you feel bad about yourself, you most likely feel like undeserving of asking God for more Love.

Mary (Gregor): I want to ask God for Love for those that I have harmed.

Jesus: Yes, but this is what I am saying, you also need to ask God for Love for your own sake as well, and it feels to me the reason why you’ve taken it slowly, is because asking God is going to trigger some feelings that you have, about your own shame about yourself. Do you know what I mean?

Mary (Gregor): Yes, thank you. Thank you.

Female Participant 2: How did you start your relationship with God?

Jesus: Good question.

Female Participant 2: Or how did that come about?

Jesus: How did it start?

Female Participant 2: Yes.

Jesus: I think he sort of explained that already a bit, but perhaps he can illustrate that a bit more.

Mary (Gregor): So, at the time when I started to feel regret for the people I had harmed, then I had some men, who I now know were Celestial friends who were around me, suddenly I felt them around me, and they helped me to know that God didn’t judge me, which was very hard for me to understand.

As my friend was just pointing out, I’m still coming to understand that, but they encouraged me to ask God for God’s feelings about what I had done, and that turned out to be a really different experience than what I expected.

Female Participant 2: How so?

Mary (Gregor): I had to have a lot of courage to ask because I thought at that time God would want me … I almost felt that God would want me to suffer as I had been suffering until that point, and while I understand now God did want me to go through that process, once my heart had softened God didn’t want me too anymore.

I felt a great degree of recognition of my sin from God, but also, I felt compassion from God, and that’s what I wasn’t expecting.

I also learned in that process, in those first experiments, that I could ask God to help me really see what I had done to harm others, so I didn’t have to watch the movie continually. That God could show me precisely how I had hurt others, and so I really began to engage in that process with God really actively after that point. Does that answer your question?

Female Participant 2: Yes, thank you.

Jesus (to Female Participant 2): Are you also interested in terms of what triggered the start? Can you see what he has explained to you is like a gradual process of becoming awakened to the possibility of a relationship with God? It wasn’t all of a sudden he had an epiphany, and all of a sudden realise.

Also, remember in his early discussion he was saying how he entered the process of repentance first, and then that opened his heart to having a relationship with God as well.

Mary (Gregor): I think before then it would have been very hard, because obviously God has had a lot to say to me about how I have harmed others, and if I didn’t want to know that from God … if I didn’t want to know that that was true … I had reached a point where I was willing to accept that I had hurt others. If I wasn’t at that point, I think I would have been so blocked to what God wanted to say to me.

Female Participant 2: Was there a reason why Divine Love spirits were attracted to you rather than natural love spirits? Did you have a feeling about God on Earth at all?

Mary (Gregor): No, I didn’t. I didn’t. I suppose … it’s a good question. I suppose it’s because I had a feeling growing, as I think I recounted already, a growing feeling of a natural justice as to what was happening to me, and I think that that opened me to a feeling that there was somebody in charge of that justice. But I’d never really stopped to ask that question of myself, as to why exactly those friends came to me.

Jesus: I think that’s a pretty spot-on answer though.

Female Participant 3: Did you have a religious background at all?

Jesus: He was aware of religion but …

Mary (Gregor): I would say I was involved in the way that society would ask me to be involved in religion, but I had no feeling beyond it being a societal ritual.

Jesus: And a tool to get to more power perhaps

Mary (Gregor): A construct of the society I suppose you’d say.

Female Participant 3: And a punishing God, a sort of a religious note?

Mary (Gregor): No, I had no feeling; no feeling that I would ever be punished; no feeling of a God.

Jesus: You can’t do the things that he decided to do without having no feeling, you have to have no feelings.

Female Participant 2: Was there some similarity from the time that you came into our conversation today, did you harm your soulmate while you were on Earth, like Nero?

Mary (Gregor): I was drawn when you were discussing the … well actually, I think John really brought me.

Jesus: The Apostle John?

Mary (Gregor): Yes. It was because there was the discussion of the record, and he knows that I would like to talk about it. I hadn’t met him, but he knew that I knew, and so he brought me then.

There was a lot of amends that I had to make towards my wife, but she wasn’t my soulmate. I haven’t met my soulmate yet. I’m not aware, I think I would have been told if I had hurt my soulmate, but perhaps I’m being told now about something prompted; perhaps it’s something I need to investigate.

I feel a great deal of sorrow about how I treated my wife in particular on Earth, and I have been feeling that sorrow for quite some time, working through that in many different ways. As far as I am aware she is not my soulmate, I don’t feel that she is and I don’t see a connection between us, but I haven’t yet made a connection with my soulmate.

Jesus: That’s common too, it’s usually in the fifth sphere that most spirits have any connection to their soulmates, because it takes time to deal with the inter-gender emotional issues.

Mary (Gregor): Thank you for letting me share my story.

(Audience expresses gratitude for Gregor coming to speak)

Mary (Gregor): I feel very passionately about The Way, but I also feel the pain that I went through after my passing was very just also. I am involved in assisting other people who are going through the same pain that I went through.

Jesus: In terms of helping them find a way while they’re in the compensatory process.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and I pray for them a lot, that they’ll reach that point of recognition of regret, of the harm to others sooner than I did.

Jesus: And it’s particularly the regret of harm to others, there’s plenty of times when we complain about harm to oneself.

Mary (Gregor): Yes. (Both Jesus and Gregor chuckle)

Jesus: This is a pattern I think for our group here to bear in mind. Most of the complaints they have, are about how others have harmed them rather than their harm of others. I think that’s very good.

Mary (Gregor): I can honestly say that I didn’t love others until I felt that regret of how I had … the harm I had done. That feels like the opening of my heart to love. Probably for the first time in my existence.

Jesus: Perhaps you can comment a little about the contrast between where you are now, in terms of where you live and where you first arrived.

Mary (Gregor): Well, it’s so remarkable. Where I reside now is so far beyond any earthly conception of peace or beauty; it’s really, really quite wonderful.

Where I entered the spirit life was really beyond the conception of what on Earth you could think of as the worst place you could be really. 

There are very terrible places on Earth that people are and have been put in terms their physical restriction and their physical discomfort, and so it’s possibly akin to something like that. But because there was the spiritual coldness, if I could call it that, the environment was also emotionally cold and hard, because it was reflecting me.

So, it wasn’t just physically cold but emotionally cold as well. I am not sure how to explain that well, because it’s a different quality to what is experienced on Earth, isn’t it?

Jesus: Yes, on Earth here you can sort of avoid the spiritual experience of it, can’t you, to a degree.

Mary (Gregor): And I know many people suffer physically on Earth but …

Jesus:  … not often the ones that are in poorer condition.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, that’s right. There’s no escaping the mind. On Earth there are …

Jesus:  … escapes everywhere.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, what you would call an escape of the mind.

Jesus: Which is probably what we have been referring to with our group here as denial.

Mary (Gregor): There’s no sleep state to go to, there’s no other state to enter.

Jesus: No rest

Mary (Gregor): There’s no splitting from self, or many of the things that people do on Earth.

Jesus: There’s no let up from the situation you’re in. It’s not like you can be uncomfortable today, so you decide to go on a holiday tomorrow.

Mary (Gregor): No

Jesus: Oh, I’m feeling a bit lonely I’ll go across to the coast, or I feel a bit like I need a bit of night life, so I’ll go dancing or whatever – nothing like that.

Mary (Gregor): No, it’s beyond that.

Female Participant 3: And the only movie on Netflix is your record.

Jesus: Is your own movie, that’s the only thing and nothing else; once you’re open to it, it’s impossible to get away from.

Mary (Gregor): And there’s no warmth that I could get from …

Jesus: It’s as rigid as you have been.

Mary (Gregor): Yes. There was no warmth that I could get from others, I couldn’t take from others, and I had done that a lot on Earth.

Jesus: Couldn’t get approval from others

Mary (Gregor): Power

Jesus: Get nice feelings from others, power over others – nothing.

Male Particpant 1: When you first see the record … your condition is … you’re still in harmony with it in some way, aren’t you? Does it feel bad when you think back?

Jesus: No, most people when they first see the record are like Gregor, where he started to see the record, but didn’t really know why it was happening, why it was there; couldn’t agree that that was even what he did. It’s like being presented with a record of your life and you go, ‘Ah, no that’s not really me’. You know what I mean? Maybe a bit of me, but …

Mary (Gregor): Or even then, once I did see it as me, I was so cold in my heart towards those things that …

Jesus: So, what! So, I did that, so what?

Mary (Gregor): Yes, I didn’t have an emotional response initially.

Female Participant 3: To see the record, did you have to desire it strongly or was it just because of some circumstances. What were the circumstances?

Jesus: No, remember he described the breakthrough was when he got the chair and the record at the same time, what was the breakthrough? Can you remember it?

Female Participant 3: When he first had some feelings of hurting others.

Jesus: No, that’s the second one, what was the first one.

Female Participant 3: I can’t remember.

Jesus: Want him to say it again?

Female Participant 3: Yes please

Mary (Gregor): No, I wasn’t angry, and I was still disconnected. I just thought that there must be a way to get out of where I was.

Jesus: So, his heart was saying, ‘There must be a way to get out of here, what is it?’ And he is given a chair and a record; there’s the way out. Do you understand? That’s God’s answer; there’s the way out. Do you follow that?

This is God’s answer to his question, is there a way out? Here’s the way out; a chair and a record.

Female Participant 4: So, it took you all those years to ask that question?

Jesus: Yes, for lots of reasons.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, like I described I was always very logical, and so I did always think when I entered the spirit world, there must be a way beyond this, but it wasn’t until I thought there was more responsibility that perhaps there was something I could do.

Jesus: Something I need do.

Mary (Gregor): It still wasn’t a feeling, a softness that I had done anything wrong, but perhaps something I actually had to do, because no one was coming that I could negotiate with, if you like.  So, that’s when the chair and the record appeared.

Female Participant 3: So, that’s like self-responsibility. A feeling, I’ve got to be responsible for this.

Jesus: Exactly, it’s the beginning of it, isn’t it? Beginning of a … I have control over this situation somehow, I don’t know yet how, but I need to know what that is.

Female Participant 3: Because I created this obviously

Jesus: No, no there’s not even that. Not even that.

Mary (Gregor): I wasn’t self-responsible at that point, but I was at the inception point.

Jesus: Exactly. Exactly. There must be something I can do to get out of this.

Female Participant 4: So, before that period, where no one was coming, and it was going on for years and years and years, was there despair inside of you? Hopelessness?

Jesus: Too hard to feel despair.

Mary (Gregor): I wasn’t very connected … well, I wasn’t connected with my emotions. So, when I began to feel despair and hopelessness was probably after I got angry. The hopelessness and the anger came together, after I had been experiencing a lot of physical pain for a long time.

Before then there was sort of a feeling of numb, it is kind of an indignation, but that feels too strong a word, because I really wasn’t connected emotionally.

Jesus: Possibly what I can feel from you is that feeling of restriction.

Mary (Gregor): Very restricted

Jesus: Just feeling restricted

Mary (Gregor): Yes

Jesus: Why can’t I do more than this, type of feeling. Does that make sense to you? Imagine you’re in a room, you can’t get out of the room; it’s all very cold, all cold emotionally; no one else is there, what’s going to be your thought.

Male Participant 2: I’d be angry within five minutes I reckon.

(Jesus laughs)

Jesus: But isn’t one of your thoughts going to be, how can I get out of here?

Audience: Yes

Jesus: Or why can’t I get out of here? After a while that’s the thought that it engages, isn’t it?

Then once he realised, there must be something I can do to get out of here, that’s more of a request, isn’t it? More of a request: please tell me if there is something I can do to get out of here, basically is the theory. Like he wants to know, is there some way to get out of here? There must be.

Female Participant 4: Christians that are taught, or some sects anyway, are taught that hell is eternal. In the Catholic Church hell is eternal. So, would they need to get more stuck looking at the records?

Jesus: Sometimes, usually if they’re taught that and they believe it, but Gregor didn’t believe it.

Female Participant 4: So, that was an advantage.

Jesus: Yes, that’s right it’s an advantage, if he was taught it and believed it, and he had done all the things he had already done, all of those things together, then he might have decided that this is where he is going to be the rest of his existence and not even bother to ask the question, can I get out of here? That is true.

There are many popes of old who have done that, who have gotten to the spirit world in a really dark place and haven’t even bothered asking the question – if they believe it.

Female Participant 4: That’s what the teaching is. 

Jesus: Yes, but it’s whether you believe the teaching or not. It’s not about the teaching; many popes don’t believe their own teachings. Many religious people don’t believe the teaching. It’s whether you actually believe it or not.

Mary (Gregor): Also, belief is so emotional, and the evolution of my belief has happened through my emotional changes, and on Earth that is very poorly understood.

Jesus: It’s completely misunderstood really.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, belief is understood as something intellectual. If there is an intellectual belief, people believe that not only do they believe that it’s an emotional belief for them, which is often not the case, but they also think that their intellect will govern in this location, in this world, and it doesn’t.

So, I’ve spoken to you really about my emotional conditions, not about my thought processes and I notice that a lot of you are asking about my thought processes, and so I’ve spoken really from the emotional. I could talk about my thought processes a little more if you like …

Jesus: Possibly not

Mary (Gregor):  … but I think that is more confusing.

Jesus: Yes, and also, I think what’s important for the audience here to understand, is that they get so involved in the thought processes, but they don’t understand yet that none of their thought processes really matter in a lot of ways.

Mary (Gregor): It’s one thing to even think there were periods, when I was in physical pain; time, when I thought perhaps … even thought I was sorry for the people that I had harmed, but that wasn’t real until I reached an emotional point of sorrow. Where I actually felt deep regret and sorrow and wished that I did not harm those people, but that was emotional.

Jesus: It’s like asking a child here on Earth to ‘say you’re sorry’ when he’s not sorry, and then to actually have the child feel he’s sorry and then want to do something about it. Does that make sense, there’s a big difference between those two places?

Mary (Gregor): And because I had such a logical brain, I reached the recognition, not initially, not for over one hundred years, but I did reach the recognition when I was in the physical pain place that this is because I’ve hurt other people. I realised that at some point intellectually, and even I wished that I hadn’t harmed them, because I didn’t want to be going through the pain, but that wasn’t a true …

Jesus: Still all selfish right?

Mary (Gregor): That was selfish and it was thoughts, and it wasn’t until I felt real compassion for those people that my situation could change then – quickly. I know you say it’s sort of slowly, but the change from where I was to the top of the first sphere and into the second sphere was really quite rapid after that.

Jesus: Particularly compared with many who have experienced the same history as yourself, which have been thousands of years in the same places.

Mary (Gregor): Yes, and if I hadn’t had that change, I might still be there. 

Jesus: Yes, and it’s very important for the audience here I feel, to see that the difference between emotional feelings and the thought processes are so far apart from each other that it’s like – for most people here, when they hear God’s Truth, they think they get it, but they’ve got nowhere near it yet in their heart, and it’s very important to grasp that.

If you don’t grasp that, you basically presume then a lot of things that you think you understand and think you get, and you don’t. If you think about it though, your life is a reflection of the fact that you don’t. Does that make sense?

Female Participant 3: It’s so easy to fool yourself with thoughts when we are so intellectual and the world is so set up for intellect, we kind of think, well, I get it, I get it because I understand it …

Jesus: Not only that, its purposeful inside of yourself. How many of you want to grieve how you have treated others, compared to just thinking about it and hope it never happened?

If you think about it, if you grieve about it, there is going to be a lot of heart in it, isn’t there? There’s going to be a lot of crying and heartfelt sorrow. For many of us we don’t want go there, and so we would rather just have a thought and say, ‘Oh, I’m sorry now’.

Also, we have a thought, we say, ‘I’m sorry’, and we go, ‘Now I should get a better result, because I’ve said I’m sorry’; similar to how a child has been taught, if you say you’re sorry you’ll get the ice cream or whatever. We often have imbibed these kinds of belief systems, thinking this is how it’s all going to work with God, and it doesn’t.

Unless it’s sincere emotion that you’re feeling about something, it’s not going to work with God – ever!

Female Participant 3: Which is good because it shows us whether we’re sincere or not.

Jesus: Exactly, it’s really good, but for the majority of us we think, ‘No, I should be able to just think it all it through and I should be able to get through it then’, because we want to avoid the pain of it. We’re trying to avoid the pain of it, and this is the thing, the spirit world doesn’t let you avoid the pain of it.

For the majority of us we think it’s going to, we think it’s going to, and it’s not. That’s why I’m saying, it’s far better to start the process here of self-analysis, because it’s very hard to start there.

Also, on top of that, if you are convinced that you can think things and you can get through things by thinking things, you’re going to be absolutely shocked, because it’s not like that at all.

Male Participant 2: If we passed at this point, how much would we retain of what we may have learnt in the last ten years?

Jesus: Not a lot because you haven’t learnt a lot. You think you’ve heard it, but you haven’t yet applied it in your heart – haven’t emotionally applied it. It’s only stuff that you emotionally apply that you remember.

Male Participant 2: What about prayer?

Jesus: Well, you think you are praying but you’re not. Most of the time you’re praying to avoid pain, which is a very selfish thing, and that’s not a prayer, and that doesn’t reach God. So, for the majority of us that’s what we’re praying.

Basically, what we do is, before we learn about God, we want to avoid our life; we want to avoid any pain we’ve caused to others in our life. Then when we hear about God, we go, oh, I can’t avoid it, so I’ll pray to God for forgiveness but it’s not heart, your heart is not in it yet.

You don’t even know what you’ve done wrong, let alone know what you’re being forgiven for. So, your heart is not in it, and so there’s no prayer and there’s no forgiveness there either.

Then when you arrive, you’re going to think, I did all that, how are you going to feel then? Pretty pee’d off probably. The fact you thought you did it all when you haven’t done any of it. Mind you the teacher who is teaching you has told you, you haven’t done much of it, and you don’t believe him, right. Because you want to believe that you have.

Male Participant 2: No, I know I haven’t.

Jesus: No, no, I’m saying generally, we want to believe generally that we have, and it’s like when we raise issues about women for example, you generally want to believe that it’s not as bad as what I’m saying really.

Male Participant 2: Yeah, I’m not that bad of a bloke.

Jesus: Yeah, I’m not that bad of a bloke, what are you talking about? That kind of thing, but see, this is God’s standard we’re talking about, and God’s standards are pretty refined when it comes to love.

A lot of times when we think, ‘Oh, it’s not too bad’; from God’s perspective it’s like, ‘Yeah, it’s not too bad in that you’re not at the bottom of the hells, but you’re a few rungs up the ladder in the hells, from not too bad’. From God’s perspective anything below the seventh is bad in a lot of ways, isn’t it? Not as good as it could be, let’s say that.

(Laughs)

A lot of times from the fourth to the seventh it’s all about how you feel about you, but a lot of times in the earlier spheres, it’s how you’ve done others wrong; you understand?

For the majority of us, we ignore how we feel about ourselves, and we do others badly, we treat others badly. So, for the first half of our progress you could say up until the, third, fourth, fifth sphere even, we’re dealing with how we’ve treated others.

By the fifth, we’re now starting to recognise, who am I? What am I going to do? Do I love myself yet? Do I care about myself yet? What about the other half of myself? And you’re starting to recognise all those things from an emotional perspective. Before then it’s all about how you’ve done others bad, and that’s where it’s really tough because for most of us, we want to focus on how others have done us wrong.

Male Participant 2: What is it that prevents you from really feeling about what you have done to others?

Jesus: Well, there’s a number of things: firstly, you don’t think the things you did were wrong. That’s a big issue, isn’t it?

An example of that might be, let’s say I’m a man and I’ve expected women to cook my dinner for me. That’s pretty innocent, you know, I was brought up that way, what’s wrong with that? It’s pretty normal and most women like cooking for you really, that’s how they feel good about themselves, is the way you explain it away to yourself.

But from God’s perspective, how does God feel about it? When you really feel what God feels about it, it’s pretty bad. Then just that one little thing that I think, ‘Oh, that’s alright, there’s nothing much wrong with that’, God’s already thinking that little thing is bad, what about the big things that are bad? (Laughs)

How tough are they going to be, when even just this little thing was bad and I can’t accept that, I think it’s just normal, do you know what I mean? So, you can see that the awakening process is pretty tricky to come to see it God’s Way.

And this is something when we speak with our spirit friends about these matters, it’s hard for them to convey to you how it feels being in the position. In a lot of ways unless you’ve seen it for yourself, or gone through it yourself, you don’t really know how bad it can be, sinning against God’s Laws and how refined it all is.

I’m not saying this to frighten the living daylights out of all of you, I’m just saying it’s the reality of how unloving things are here, and most of us don’t realise how unloving things are, because we’re living in that band of what’s acceptable.

You know how we’ve drawn that band on the whiteboard? I can’t go below this, I’m a bad person; I can’t go above this, I’m a bad person if I do that too. That band is set very low, it’s a very low bar from God’s perspective.

It’s interesting I find when we set a higher bar – and by the way here we’re not even setting a bar, a Celestial bar – we’re setting what, maybe a sphere two bar.

So, we’re setting maybe a sphere two bar and most of you feel it’s too extreme, and that’s how much of a contrast it is.

That’s why when someone like Gregor comes along to explain the situation, sometimes some of you feel some judgement or whatever, but you’ve really not yet got any personal idea of the bars, of where things are in love and where you are in that scheme of things.

Male Participant 3: We’re very invested in thinking, I’m okay.

Jesus: Thinking good about ourselves.

Male Participant 3: Thinking good about ourselves.

Jesus: Self-absorbed in our thoughts about ourselves

Male Participant 2: I feel like I know I’ve done some pretty bad shit.

Jesus: Yes. Well, it’s often the things you don’t know that are the worst things. Often the things that we’ve done that we know are bad, are pretty extreme bad. But it’s all the ones that we don’t know are bad, that are bad, that we have the most difficulty with.

The ones that are extreme bad that we know of, most of us are already in a state where we’re at least recognising it. You can at least look at the wall and go, ‘Yes, I did that’. Mind you a lot of our grief about it is not about how we’ve hurt others, it’s all about ‘I wish I never did that bad thing’, or even worse, ‘I wish I never got caught for doing that bad thing’.

But when it comes to the refinement from God’s perspective it’s like, well, all those things you see are bad; well yes, that’s true, you see them as bad, from God’s perspective they’re really bad.

But all the things you think you are normal, most of them are bad too, and you don’t yet know how bad they are, and this is why it’s hard. Unless you’re very self-reflective, and you can get away from being self-absorbed in your own emotional state and actually feel the impact you’re having on others, you won’t actually see any of that.

Male Participant 3: We don’t want to know.

Jesus: We don’t want to know, and it’s like Gregor was saying, until he wanted to know, everything before then was hard.

Male Participant 3: Not for a selfish reason.

Jesus: Not for a selfish reason, yes, most of us even now, we only want to know for a selfish reason, we go, ‘Oh, I want to be free of this for myself’. So, that’s pretty selfish really, isn’t it? When you think about it, it’s not: ‘I’m not doing it for the sake of harming others’; I’m doing it for the sake of myself, and so that’s not yet at that state is it, that he’s describing.

And he’s saying, it wasn’t until he got into that state that he started to have a relationship with God either. So, that’s also a key thing to remember in the discussion. Because he had to get to that state where he wanted to be and felt to be sorry for what he had done, before he could even enter a relationship with God, because he didn’t even feel at that stage that he could have one.

So, that’s going to be the same for most of us too – same thing. This is why we bring these examples here, is to help you see that we’re not talking about someone else, we’re talking about you here.

We’re not talking about Hitlers and Stalins, we’re talking about normal people who thought their life was normal on Earth, just like you do, and thought they fitted into society, just like you do, and yet they’ve had some really harsh times coming to terms with God’s Laws, you follow?

Male Participant 3: What would it take for us to want to see ourselves as God sees us?

Jesus: Just a sincere heart, that’s really all it takes, but the hard part is getting the sincere heart. You can see for Gregor, it took him quite some time to get the sincere heart, and a whole heap of circumstantial things had to happen.

Male Participant 3: A lot of pain

Jesus: And some pain and suffering had to happen before the sincere heart began to develop, and it’s going to be the same for all of us. That’s usually the case.

Male Participant 1: The judgement thing that you mentioned, he needs to stop judging himself?

Jesus: Yes, well all I could feel there, was that Gregor was limiting his own progression, because he felt he needed to do more to undo the pain and suffering he had caused others, before he could allow more of God’s Love to enter him. And all I was saying there was that he didn’t need to wait for that, he didn’t need to wait for that.

But you imagine you’ve done all these things and then you realise what you’ve done, you can see why you would do that right? Because you would be pretty gutted about all the things you’ve done, and you’d also be realising that there’s a lot of things you can do to fix these things.

The disadvantage of the space of slowing yourself down though, is you have less power to do the things to fix it as well. So, that’s one of the disadvantages of slowing yourself down.

But it is a hard hoop to get over because the hoop is: I feel bad about what I have done, which is what you need to do, feel bad about what you have done, but that doesn’t need to stop you from asking for God’s Love, because of what you’ve done.

Female Participant 3: But you know when you feel like – especially with the religious thing – that’s why I was under the impression he might have been raised religiously, because he felt like I don’t deserve God’s Love because of the things that I have done.

Jesus: No, no, if I could best say his feelings about his upbringing; he’s got almost the same emotions as a middle to upper class person on Earth would have today.

Female Participant 5: He did have.

Mary: He did have, yes. I don’t even know if he was as dark as …

Jesus: Not as dark as your grandad (in reference to an audience participant), I’d say not as dark … but there were women issues – probably made him as dark.

Female Participant 6: The things he was able to do to help the people that he had harmed, was that that he already had a relationship with God? and he realised that he could pray?

Jesus: Not only that, he understands the whole process of compensation, that he wants to help the people he has hurt; he wants to go to them and see what he can do to help them. He wants to do what he can do, and he wants to do it right as well, he wants to do the right thing.

Also, because he’s in the spirit world and they’re now in the spirit world he has the power to actually go and visit them and talk to them and help them wherever he can – if they let him.

Female Participant 7: You said, ‘the legacy of injuries’ and how that has slowed him down due to that, I was wondering if you could explain that in detail?

Jesus: Well, when we engage sin and then we come to a recognition that we’ve engaged a lot of sin, we then start developing emotions about feeling bad about the fact that we’ve done that. Emotions that we didn’t have before.

Female Participant 7: They’re new ones.

Jesus: They’re new ones. They’re new emotions that we never had before and then those new emotions if we’re not careful, can have the effect of slowing us down in terms of asking for God’s Love, and in terms of still wanting to receive Love from God.

Then on top of that, another feeling he was having was, I’ve got to do more to help the people I’ve harmed, if I progress then I won’t do that. But that actually isn’t true, he’ll be able to help them more.

But there is this other feeling you start having, that I need to stay here in this sphere because there are people I have harmed here that I can help, and I can go back to the other spheres and help the people that I have harmed there.

Mary: And there was a bit of a feeling of I’m not deserving yet of greater joy, because my joy is already so big and these people are not in joy yet, and I want them to get there.

Jesus: Yes, and that’s a very common feeling for people who start to engage things God’s Way, they often have the feeling of, ‘Wow, I can’t be truly happy yet, because there are all these other people I have harmed that are not happy’. They don’t even know God’s Way yet, and I need to help them first to know God’s Way. Not realising that if you were in a better condition yourself you can help better.

Cornelius: You sort of use guilt on yourself as self-punishment

Jesus: It’s sort of a self-restriction, rather than a self-punishment, I suppose. It’s a restrictive thing you’re placing on yourself, not realising that you don’t have to.

Mary: You’re not punishing, you’re restricting – there’s a difference.

Jesus: Yes, and the person who feels these things has a tendency to do that, because you realise you’ve done all these things wrong, and then you realise, ‘Oh, I want to fix them all’, and then you start getting into the idea that I have to fix them all before I’m happy. Does that make sense?

Mary: He’s so funny, he’s saying, “I am really happy.” Like you know, what are you doing? (Laughs)

Jesus: Yes, but before I’m a person with God, is what I’m talking about.

Mary: He said bye, bye.

(Comments and thanks from an appreciative audience)

Special hey. Special that he took the time to share his life.

Female Participant 5: It’s such an example, particularly of what we have to do here.

Jesus: Yes, pretty close.

Female Participant 5: So many parallels.

Jesus: Yes, there are so many parallels, and like I said, if you met Gregor today on the street, you would probably view him as a pretty normal middle to upper class guy.

Female Participant 1: Like he was when he was on Earth.

Jesus: When he was on Earth, yes. If you had met him.

Female Participant 3: It’s funny because, that asking for help, I suppose or asking for what do I do about this situation? It’s the same as Marie*. 

You know when Marie started, when she was in the cold ice block and hot boiling and all this stuff happening to her, she’s like, ‘How do I end this hell?’ She asked once, again for the doors of hell to open to even help her.

Jesus: That’s right

Female Participant 3: Because she was like there needs to be a way out; that recognition that there has to be a way to change this situation.

Jesus: That’s right, and a personal sense that it is something you need to do. Not something somebody else will do for you, that’s right.

Female Participant 5: So, when you say, if we met him on the street now, we would think he was an average Aussie guy. 

Jesus: Yes, average sort of guy.

Female Participant 5: What you mean by that is …?

Jesus: Well, not an average guy, you would think of him as a sort of normal middle to upper class guy.

Female Participant 5: Yes, someone who’s relatively successful, relatively nice. 

Jesus: Yes, successful, you would probably look up to him initially.

Mary: He’s not verbally abusing people or slapping them around; he’s abiding by all society’s rules. That’s what you mean, isn’t it?

Jesus:Yes, he was at times violent, but the average guy on Earth today …

Mary: And you wouldn’t know

Jesus: You wouldn’t know. He had a terrible attitude towards women, but you look at the average middle to upper class guy. The average middle to upper class guy would visit a prostitute if he had the opportunity, go and watch a strip show if some friends invited him. 

Mary: Not consider how his business dealings might create pain and suffering …

Jesus: … for others. 

Female Participant 5: What age did he pass? Do you know?

Jesus: Old age he said.

Mary: Somewhere like seventy

Jesus: Yes, close to seventy

Mary: Yes, between sixty and seventy

Female Participant 2: I’ve been having this thing lately where I’m trying to pray more and establish a relationship maybe with God, and I’m finding random memories are coming to me and feelings about them from my life. At the time it feels like, well that’s random, that’s not what I thought I needed to feel about. Is this the record starting to pop up?

Jesus: Yes, God tries to help you by saying, this is blocking you, this is blocking you, this is blocking you, this is blocking you, does that make sense?

Female Participant 2: Since you said it, I’ve been praying probably every day, help me see what I am blind to, and these things are coming …

Jesus: Yes, so let yourself feel about them and think about them. Don’t sort of go, oh, that’s left field I need to ignore that. Trust that God is sharing with you the best way forward.

Anyway guys, it’s been lovely having a chat today.

The discussion for the afternoon concludes.

(*Marie: reference to a person described in the book ‘Through the Mists’ channelled by Robert James Lees)